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Laminova Cored Intercoolers (Home Brew 2. GQ TD 42 )

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matt.mcinnes

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Post Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:04 am

Laminova Cored Intercoolers (Home Brew 2. GQ TD 42 )

Well my inter cooler is about 4 weeks away at the most from testing but work has already started on a new project with Awill4x4 leading the way this time :D

Here is a hint of what's to come Laminova style :D


Image
Last edited by matt.mcinnes on Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:17 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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RED60

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Post Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:12 pm

So are you going to put the intercooler on/in the halved manifold so it's 1 unit....... this idea is already patented by me, so don't even think about it... :D :D
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awill4x4

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Post Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:21 pm

RED60 wrote:So are you going to put the intercooler on/in the halved manifold so it's 1 unit....... this idea is already patented by me, so don't even think about it... :D :D


Dream on, you haven't seen anything like these ones. :D :D
Besides, you can argue the toss with ARE about incorporating the intercooler core onto the plenum and who did what 1st.
Regards Andrew.
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ISUZUROVER

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Post Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:33 pm

awill4x4 wrote:
RED60 wrote:So are you going to put the intercooler on/in the halved manifold so it's 1 unit....... this idea is already patented by me, so don't even think about it... :D :D


Dream on, you haven't seen anything like these ones. :D :D
Besides, you can argue the toss with ARE about incorporating the intercooler core onto the plenum and who did what 1st.
Regards Andrew.


Andrew - roughly how much to make one of these??? I am seriously interested (can PM).

My manifold is the same as this one:
Image
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awill4x4

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Post Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 pm

ISUZUROVER wrote:t 1st.
Andrew - roughly how much to make one of these??? I am seriously interested (can PM).
My manifold is the same as this one:


Ben, at the moment I don't even know if it's going to work. It's a project I got involved with when Matt asked me to weld his Laminova cored water to air intercooler.
At 1st I thought "Nah! this isn't going to work" and then I started to look a bit closer and it really intrigued me. The core design is completely different to anything else I've learned about intercooling and when you look at one the initial thought is the air can't flow through this thing.
What you don't see unless you look carefully is the massive surface area in such a small unit with fin thicknesses of 0.2mm and a gap beween each fin of 0.3mm.
Then you look at how the air is directed over the fins through and out of a couple of slots and again the 1st thought is "no way there must be such an air restriction"
It's when you do the calcs and look at the slot areas and compare them to the inlet from the turbo and you realise they are so much larger in area than you realised.
There's not a lot of info available on the web about them and they are usually used as either a couple of cores or 3 in the case of supercharged BMW M3's. Matt's I/cooler uses 4 cores and I'd like to try and fit 6 into a TD42 plenum/intake and run them in series where the air goes through one set of 3 and then another set of 3.
Matt's had his bench flowed and even the guy who flowed it couldn't believe how little pressure drop there was (2%). Admittedly this is under vacuum and boost pressure may be different but it's worth a try.
There's some more info on Laminova's own site at http://www.opcon.se/index.asp?sPage=1&langID=2&cID=15
and it gives more info including design, orientation and basic info on how they work.
We are Tig welders, gravity doesn't worry us.
Image
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ISUZUROVER

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Post Thu May 01, 2008 12:19 am

awill4x4 wrote:
ISUZUROVER wrote:t 1st.
Andrew - roughly how much to make one of these??? I am seriously interested (can PM).
My manifold is the same as this one:


Ben, at the moment I don't even know if it's going to work. It's a project I got involved with when Matt asked me to weld his Laminova cored water to air intercooler.
At 1st I thought "Nah! this isn't going to work" and then I started to look a bit closer and it really intrigued me. The core design is completely different to anything else I've learned about intercooling and when you look at one the initial thought is the air can't flow through this thing.
What you don't see unless you look carefully is the massive surface area in such a small unit with fin thicknesses of 0.2mm and a gap beween each fin of 0.3mm.
Then you look at how the air is directed over the fins through and out of a couple of slots and again the 1st thought is "no way there must be such an air restriction"
It's when you do the calcs and look at the slot areas and compare them to the inlet from the turbo and you realise they are so much larger in area than you realised.
There's not a lot of info available on the web about them and they are usually used as either a couple of cores or 3 in the case of supercharged BMW M3's. Matt's I/cooler uses 4 cores and I'd like to try and fit 6 into a TD42 plenum/intake and run them in series where the air goes through one set of 3 and then another set of 3.
Matt's had his bench flowed and even the guy who flowed it couldn't believe how little pressure drop there was (2%). Admittedly this is under vacuum and boost pressure may be different but it's worth a try.
There's some more info on Laminova's own site at http://www.opcon.se/index.asp?sPage=1&langID=2&cID=15
and it gives more info including design, orientation and basic info on how they work.


Thanks Andrew,
I am familiar with the Laminova design, and have no doubts about its effectiveness - I have worked in fluid mechanics (and filtration) for quite a few years, so know many cases like the laminova core (something that looks solid but has almost no DP (btw - if you want bench testing done at pressure I can do it).

I am still interested in a price if possible (e.g. - If I supply the manifold and laminova cores, how much for you to chop the manifold and weld them in (with housing) etc...
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Z()LTAN

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Post Thu May 01, 2008 12:37 am

pff this stuff has been used in CAT tractors for over 15 years....

same shit different name..
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matt.mcinnes

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Post Thu May 01, 2008 8:09 am

Z()LTAN wrote:pff this stuff has been used in CAT tractors for over 15 years....

same shit different name..



I think if you took time to read you would find the technology has come a little further since CAT's tractors ;)
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thewayitis

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Post Thu May 01, 2008 6:59 pm

Z()LTAN wrote:pff this stuff has been used in CAT tractors for over 15 years....

same shit different name..

I was about to say the same thing actaully. 3406B? I think I saw one in today and I have definatly seen 1.1 litre engines with it.
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BASSYK

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Post Fri May 02, 2008 4:47 am

matt.mcinnes wrote:
Z()LTAN wrote:pff this stuff has been used in CAT tractors for over 15 years....

same shit different name..



I think if you took time to read you would find the technology has come a little further since CAT's tractors ;)


hmmm cat tractor to Fj40

now theres a big step up :D :D lol
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matt.mcinnes

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Post Fri May 02, 2008 10:27 am

BASSYK wrote:
matt.mcinnes wrote:
Z()LTAN wrote:pff this stuff has been used in CAT tractors for over 15 years....

same shit different name..



I think if you took time to read you would find the technology has come a little further since CAT's tractors ;)


hmmm cat tractor to Fj40

now theres a big step up :D :D lol


I like the tractor motor analogy..... I have yet to see any of my neighbors with a V8 in their tractor no matter how big it is :D :D
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BASSYK

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Post Fri May 02, 2008 11:57 am

matt.mcinnes wrote:
BASSYK wrote:
matt.mcinnes wrote:
Z()LTAN wrote:pff this stuff has been used in CAT tractors for over 15 years....

same shit different name..



I think if you took time to read you would find the technology has come a little further since CAT's tractors ;)


hmmm cat tractor to Fj40

now theres a big step up :D :D lol


I like the tractor motor analogy..... I have yet to see any of my neighbors with a V8 in their tractor no matter how big it is :D :D


http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IeecrUHrYVY
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80's_delirious

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Post Fri May 02, 2008 8:06 pm

has this gone beyond bench testing?? looks like a really creative design.
would love to know how well it works
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matt.mcinnes

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Post Fri May 02, 2008 9:56 pm

80's_delirious wrote:has this gone beyond bench testing?? looks like a really creative design.
would love to know how well it works


The one in my 40 will be tested in about 3 weeks.
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matt.mcinnes

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Post Sun May 11, 2008 2:35 pm

Awill4x4 dropped in today and picked up his TD42 inlet manifold and dropped off one of these along with a housing for me to play with :D

Image

Image
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badger

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Post Sun May 11, 2008 4:33 pm

how much is one of these cores worth?
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sambo

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Post Sun May 11, 2008 5:32 pm

How much are they and where in did you get them from.
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matt.mcinnes

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Post Sun May 11, 2008 6:49 pm

Cheap not :shock: How efficient were about to find out :twisted:

http://www.laminova-online.se/Front/Pag ... 328&cid=78

Price is in USD

Got to love e-Bay
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bj on roids

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Post Mon May 12, 2008 10:13 am

Good luck with it Matt
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matt.mcinnes

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Post Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:59 am

Testing mine tomorrow so we will have some numbers to work with :armsup:
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tna racing

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Post Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:48 am

best of luck matt :armsup:
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RED60

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Post Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:59 am

Is it Tuesday yet? :D :D :D
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RED60

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Post Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:00 pm

Well MM whats the lowdown... :cool:
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matt.mcinnes

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Post Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:50 pm

RED60 wrote:Well MM whats the lowdown... :cool:


I can't get the intake temp over 31C even at full boost.

http://forum.ih8mud.com/3374657-post123.html
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matt.mcinnes

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Post Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:22 pm

Results are in testing done.

I've been testing NOT Hooning :D

Pre inter cooler cruising temp is 50C(No snorkel)/122F
Full boost rises to 82C/180F

Post inter cooler cruising temp is 25C/77F
Full boost rises to 31C/87F

Note the heat rise was only on the second run first run showed a 1C drop post intercooler. After 5 runs no post intercooler temp over 31C/87F

Ambient 12C/53.5F

Calculated Temps are spot on too :eek:
Spent the evening calculating Turbo outlet temps for the Garrett GT3082R @ 70F/21C ambient and from what I can work out at 9psi the outlet temp should be around 180F/82C at 15psi the outlet temp rises to 227F/108C.


Time for a TD42 version I think :D
Last edited by matt.mcinnes on Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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1MadEngineer

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Post Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:58 pm

matt.mcinnes wrote:Results are in testing done.

I've been testing NOT Hooning :D

Pre inter cooler cruising temp is 50C/122F
Full boost rises to 82C/180F

Post inter cooler cruising temp is 25C/77F
Full boost rises to 31C/87F

Note the heat rise was only on the second run first run showed a 1C drop post intercooler. After 5 runs no post intercooler temp over 31C/87F

Ambient 12C/53.5F

Calculated Temps are spot on too :eek:
Spent the evening calculating Turbo outlet temps for the Garrett GT3082R @ 70F/21C ambient and from what I can work out at 9psi the outlet temp should be around 180F/82C at 15psi the outlet temp rises to 227F/108C.


Time for a TD42 version I think :D


I have been doing some contrat engineering for a company which has developed an intercooler system. It has a world patent and is VERY effecient. I have had the latest version on a new LC76 at the FORD/ACART test facility at geelong for the last month doing emissions and power testing.

heres some figures which might interest you (i have a full file of the second by second data captures while tested)

this is from a dyno run at 40 degree ambient - inside their hot cell.
engine temp 83.5C,12.05psi pre CAC, 11.96psi post CAC,
airbox temp 36.2C, CAC inlet temp 108.7C, CAC outlet temp 32.5C, CAC radiator inlet temp 34.6C, CAC radiator outlet temp 27.6C.
The engine remained within 3kw of max power from -5degC to 55degC ambient!
ok so this isn't your average off the shelf system!! but it is designed to fit pretty much any vehicle, the cooler is designed to fit in a standard group31 battery location.

we have done nearly $50k in tests so far and we have just about got it perfect. It is mainly targeted at the high load end of the scale, for underground mining vehicles and fire and rescue, high load high ambient temps.

the key to its success is the core flow design and the heat boundary dynamics, also the feedback monitoring which drives a proportional ramp amplifier to control the water pump flow rate.
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Dzltec

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Post Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:09 pm

Im up for that, but have a lot more boost than you, lets see how good they are then. I have inlet air temps up to 180c.




Andy
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1MadEngineer

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Post Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:17 pm

Dzltec wrote:Im up for that, but have a lot more boost than you, lets see how good they are then. I have inlet air temps up to 180c.




Andy


The first version was designed for a QSX15 cummins which made 600hp
http://www.titanresearch.com.au/productslayout.htm

so 180c is an easy one!! we had 240C preCAC at one point before the cummins tech wanted us to ease off the power as it was making toward 700hp on the engine dyno. torque was amazing!
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cj

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Post Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:06 pm

4WD Stuff wrote:
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger:
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awill4x4

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Post Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:25 pm

1MadEngineer wrote:
Dzltec wrote:Im up for that, but have a lot more boost than you, lets see how good they are then. I have inlet air temps up to 180c.
Andy

The first version was designed for a QSX15 cummins which made 600hp
http://www.titanresearch.com.au/productslayout.htm
so 180c is an easy one!! we had 240C preCAC at one point before the cummins tech wanted us to ease off the power as it was making toward 700hp on the engine dyno. torque was amazing!


I'd hazard a guess this isn't a cheap installation especially if it's computer controlled.
Got any pics?
Considering Matt's Laminova one is a home built one we're both very impressed with what it's achieved so far. With some varying of the water pump speed we should be able to get even better results we think.
Regards Andrew.
We are Tig welders, gravity doesn't worry us.
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